Nintendo Wii Fanboy

Absolutely yes. AO games should be available at all major retailers. They should have to card in order to regulate the sale and protect the stores from liability.

If you are carding buying a game for your child, alarms should be going off in your head. A parent who buys an AO game for his/her kid could sue but would lose on the account that he/she should have known it was rated AO.

They can make BIG "Adults Only" stickers across the front if they want. Measures should be put into place to restrict the sale to adults, but I (as a 21 year old gamer) should not be banned from playing a game meant for adults.

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I think the underlying problem here is the huge conglomerate retailers policies on not stocking AO titles. They are the ones forcing the hand of the developers as well as Nintendo and Sony.

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this is a difficult question. i think the violence depicted in this game is pretty gross and unpleasant, and truthfully i would hate to think of the kind of people who would enjoy playing it and the fact that the gore would 'thrill and excite' them in ways i couldn't understand, and potentially desensitize them to suffering and anguish. But there is no precedent whatsoever to treat it altogether differently from other mediums, such as books or movies. If Nintendo don't want to show their support of it, that is their choice, and I am pretty sure that in their place I would do the same. But in the UK, where the game is officially banned, I think they have overstepped. I mean, they banned 'Relax' by Frankie Goes to Hollywood and 'Blasphemous Rumours' by the much better Depeche Mode for their lyrics in the early 80's around when I was born and all it did was drive those songs up the charts. We DO supposedly have a free country, and I think the best solution would be for all the countries where AO games would be released to have a better and more supportive, more alert and cautious mental health care system in place, because weeding out those with a propensity to commit violence, especially based on as artificial and fictional stimulus as television drama or video games, and giving them the help they need, will definitely help stop violent crime much more than limiting freedom of expression ever will.

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I do think the industry needs to lighten up, but I also think there needs to be more laws in place to ensure kids don't play games like Manhunt 2.

Don't get me wrong, if this had come out 11 years ago while I was still in highschool (... holy crap,) I'd be crying foul on the fact that I wouldn't be able to mercilessly slaughter people with full motion control. I'm old fashion now, though, and think AO games should only be allowed if safeguards are in place.

I don't mind violence in games, really. I'm finally playing F.E.A.R. and get a kick out of going into slo-mo and unloading a submachine gun clip into a bad guys neck while my girlfriend walks by and just goes "gross!"

Also, while I think console makers should tone it down on banning games with AO ratings, I think it's definitely in the right of stores to not allow games like Manhunt 2 to be sold.

I mentioned it to said girlfriend last night and she had a great little gem of wisdom which keeps making more and more sense every time I hear it:

"Honestly, why don't they just treat it like porn? Sell it on the internet."

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I think it's ridiculous that stores won't stock games with AO ratings, and that Nintendo and Sony are against the idea of an AO rating. WHY EVEN HAVE THE RATING AVAILABLE?!

It seems as if the rating itself mans BANNED or something. Put these games in the same kind of section that other media in stores that's for Adults Only is put in. Not allowing it altogether just ruins the whole rating.

And I also agree that carding should happen as well. Not just for the AO games, but for M rated games too. Even if the person looks well over 18, card them anyways. Why? Because they may be trying to buy this game for a child that may not be with them, and getting carded would alert them of the games rating, if they already didn't look at the box.

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One more thing:

In thinking about this issue, don't restrict yourself to Manhunt2. Think about your favorite franchise; if that was rated AO, should you be banned from purchasing it?

In another thread, I jokingly posted that we'll see every AAA title this gen rated AO and subsequently banned. What if MGS4 or Halo 3 were rated AO?

I agree that Manhunt2 oversteps some bounds, but that doesn't mean it should be banned from stores. There is nothing illegal about it and adults who want to play it should still be allowed to.

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I don't have a problem with people making AO games or buying AO games as long as they are of the proper age. However, I fully respect the right of the major retailers to not stock the games. Best Buy, Target, and the like don't carry NC-17 movies (do they?), so it makes sense that they won't carry AO games. There's plenty of opportunities for small, specialty retailers to carry the games.

As for Nintendo and Sony refusing to license the games, it's their decision. They're not entering this decision lightly; with all the hype this game is getting, licensing this game is like money in the bank. But if they want to keep their platform at a certain level, that's their decision.

And folks, please please PLEASE don't call this 'banning' the game or 'censorship'. The government is not involved here and no one's going to jail. These are decisions by private corporations; no one is being forced to do not carry Manhunt 2.

I think the core problem is that video games are still fighting for acceptance as an art form. Games like this won't be acceptable until after that happens, not before. Games like this--unfortunately--will do more to hurt games' acceptance than help it.

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To me it comes down to same idea about cigarettes if certain systems boast this is for mature gamers, and this system is for everybody you better be ready to stick to that claim.

You can't say everybody jump in buy my system then go, and exclude certain taste. Granted Nintendo does say in some places AO is not a game rating they will support, but that should have been made loud and clear to everybody not something you have to come across on a game site. Same goes for sony and MS stick to your guns or don't be surprised when people talk down about the game industry being for kids and Jack Thompson accusing you of poisoning America's youth.

If you really want gaming to be in your consumers minds and hearts past 18 they better start making sure they stand up for that demographic. The real question is do they really want that demographic or is that just something they are saying for hype and sales. "Hey mom dad buy your child X system don't think about the price there are games for you to on it". More and more it seems that, really it is hype and not fact.

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Looking at the AO rated games and some of the unlicensed games released at the end of NES's life cycle like Custer's Revenge tells me they're not going to be sold in stores. It'll depend on the game but the association that most of the previous AO games were rated due to sex kills a game rated for its violence.

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The older I get, the less interested I am in games with gratuitous violence.

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I think it all goes back to reputation. Does anyone remember the whole Hot Coffee thing and how it almost ruined Rockstar? Given, that was more of a shocker rating but this is sort of the same. It's the fact that it's software that allows the user to do something unsavory to most people, whether it be a sex simulator or a detailed murder game. I think that people in the gaming industry are worried about what these games will do to their reputation.

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First off, I'd like to second what Evan "madcrasher" Hildreth said. There is a world of difference between private parties choosing not to sell a game and a government regulation that bans the selling of a game. Most people who rant and rave about censorship show no understanding of this enormous detail.

Second, this is clearly a piece of strategy on Rockstar's part. Do you honestly believe they got this far into the development of a clearly AO title without knowing Nintendo and Sony's official policies on the matter of AO content? Do you honestly believe that they got this far into development of a clearly AO title without having a clue about the policies of major retailers? OF COURSE THEY KNEW! Like the Brad/Jen/Angelina nonsense that's crammed down our throats every time we stand in line at the grocery store, this Manhunt 2 contravery was planned for the generation of free publicity.

Pretty soon, everyone and their momma's gonna know about this game. When advertising creates overexposure it can cause a backlash. When it comes in the form of independent media outlets it doesn't *feel* like advertising and overexposure doesn't result in a backlash. Yea, the truth behind the issue may cause some to avoid the product but that's a small price to pay for a mountain of free publicity.

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I think it makes a lot of sense for Nintendo to not have AO games on their system. Nintendo has been working for years to build a brand that not only stands for gaming, but all inclusive, family gaming. Making a game that can only be purchased by people over a certain age may make them money in the short term, but it would weaken their brand.

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Well, others have pretty much stated my feelings. There's no point in having an AO rating if the console manufacturers won't license games with that rating. So instead of being rated 'honestly' things will be tweaked so that the game just barely makes it into the M rating category.

It's one thing for Wal-Mart to say "We won't carry AO games." because, as has been pointed out, other stores can carry them or they can be sold on the internet. But without a license from (Nintendo|Sony|MS) can a game even be published? What if Rockstar went forward with production without authorization from Nintendo? Can they even do that?

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>> Well, others have pretty much stated my feelings.
>> There's no point in having an AO rating if the
>> console manufacturers won't license games with that
>> rating.

OK, so then what do you rate a game like Manhunt 2? Clearly it's not in the same category as an "M" title which is a category permitted on Nintendo and Sony consoles. Nintendo and Sony clearly have issues with certain levels of content, so if you eliminate the "AO" category then you've eliminated Nintendo and Sony's ability to deny certain types of content on their systems. I suppose Nintendo and Sony could deny certain "M" based titles on a case-by-case basis, but that's more cumbersome and likely prone to legal troubles than to have a simple "No AO titles" policy.



Another reason the "AO" category should remain? Nintendo and Sony are not, and will not remain, the world's only gaming platform providers. Maybe Microsoft has a different philosophy with its xbox. I'm not sure about this but does the ESRB rate PC and cellphone games?

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Hmm...Interesting idea #14; Anyone know the legalese around that?
Anyhow, I agree with what most of you are saying, Why have an Adults Only rating if no one is allowed to use it?!? While I'm personally not very interested in Manhunt2, I would still play (most of) my fave franchises if they became "AO" rated. I WOULD like to see AO games--I've grown up alongside video games, Why'd they stop growing?
Why is violence so much more acceptable in our culture than sex? Why can video games show all kinds of visceral violence and decapitation but "GOD FORBID WE SHOW A TITTIE!!!"
Fuckin Conservatives. Lighten up. Enforce videogame age restrictions and hold the fucking parents accountable for what their kids are playing--Don't blame the retailers or game makers or whoever else.
Now bring on the Adults Only games!

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While I am sure that this game is excessively gross and sadistic, I don't think that the AO Rating should bar anyone that is old enough to be able to buy this game (or any others like it). Any parent that buys this

ALSO - I don't understand how the AO rating is supposed to be any different than an M Rated game...M rated is for 17 and older, and AO is for 18 and older. Wow...1 whole year of aging really does (not) make a difference. Mentally and socially a 17 and 18 year old are VERY similar, but I guess an 18 year old could be paying their own way in life, so they are free to make their own decisions.

If I (as a 38 year old) want to buy this, I should be able to...even if it is 'only' online availability. If store want to sell this, they should do the right thing and card every person who buys it.

I do have to admit that I am intrigued by this...but only to see what all the 'fuss' is about. This can't really be all that different in the gore category than RE4...can it?

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"But without a license from (Nintendo|Sony|MS) can a game even be published? What if Rockstar went forward with production without authorization from Nintendo? Can they even do that?"

The way I understand it, the game already contains all of the access codes to play in the systems but the developer is under contract to not release the game without official licensing. Therefore, the game SHOULD play in the consoles, but if Rockstar released it they would be sued for breach of contract.

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"This can't really be all that different in the gore category than RE4...can it?"

It's MUCH worse. You can slice heads off and wear them as belt buckles. You can microwave cats or kill women and then rape the dead bodies. It is over the top. Still doesn't mean it should be completely forbidden by everyone involved.

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OOPSIE I cut myself off...

Any parent that buys this for their CHILD is seriously not paying attention, and most likely should not have children or pets to watch over. I know that MY mother would have NEVER bought this kind of game for me. But then again she wouldn't let me get a Laser Tag system (back in the 80's) because she said it would make me violent. While I understand her objection to the 'gun', I would have turned out the same either way.

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While I support (disagree with, but support) Wal-Mart in their decision to not sell AO games, I think it's ridiculous for the Big Three to say that AO games can't be played on their consoles...

That's like Sony saying I can't play "adult" DVDs on one of their DVD players.

The console is essentially a player, like any other device. How dare they dictate what I can and cannot do with that expensive piece of hardware.

I'm 34yrs old. I want to play this Adult Oriented game. Why shouldn't I be able to?

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"While I understand her objection to the 'gun', I would have turned out the same either way."

And you know this... how?

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I played laser tag. I have played video games since I was born, even violent ones. Millions of us have. We've seen violent movies. Our media is saturated with it. Are we overrun by millions of zombified murderers?

A "murder simulator" does not a murderer make.

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So Nintendo and Sony had no idea what this game was about until yesterday? I find that hard to believe. Game sites have been detailing the brutal violence for months with many screen shots and videos. I'm assuming you have to give a company like Nintendo a complete breakdown of what your game will entail before they allow you to produce a game for them. And I'm a further assuming that Nintendo and Sony gave the go ahead on these games knowing full well what they were getting into, especially considering Rockstar's past history. I can only conclude that this is some ridiculous PR thing designed to placate people who don't even purchase video games to begin with. There's probably more to this story than what we see on the surface.

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Lets think of it this way

How much Pornography do you see mainstream retailers selling?

My local video store has a back room, of course, but the most i've ever seen out front in any kind of store are copies of Playboy or Penthouse

Stores don't want to be selling this, and if retailers will refuse to sell it (or at least refuse to sell it in the front) than the hardware boys are probably going to refuse to license it, considering that they probably don't want their products associated with such backroom wares as "Interracial XXX fuckfest" and other such products

Bottom line: Yes; they SHOULD be okay, but it ain't gonna happen; realistically

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RE: JimiJam

I know this because I played with toy guns earlier in life & had friends that had the Laser Tag system...all of us turned out OK. I stongly beleive that certain people are predisposed to violence, and I thankfully am NOT one of them.

I also have some things that a lot of people seem to have lost in this day and age...a healthy respect for other people, a conscious and a brain.

In real life, violence only breeds more violence.

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@22

"That's like Sony saying I can't play "adult" DVDs on one of their DVD players."

Ironically, I think porn is not allowed on blueray, but is on HDDVD.

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oh blue-ray porn is driving the industry isn't it? helping settle the debate? i found that the no-porn blu-ray seems to be a rumour

http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/home-entertainment/debbie-does-dallas--again-first-bluray-porn-231584.php

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yep, it was an 'urban legend' about no-porn blu-ray

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Disc_Announcements/Vivid/Blu-ray_PornGate_Ends_with_the_Return_of_Debbie_Does_Dallas/445

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AO games are ok, but not because gamers are growing up...they're ok because it's art or at least should be treated like it. It's completely unfair to censor things like they're doing in the UK/EU and it's still wrong to give it the inability to succeed by having AO games nigh impossible to find (or even play on said system...). It's an attack on freedom of expression.

As if we need more people telling us how to protect ourselves. If I want to do something destructive to my own damn self, let me. I don't need an effin' committee to tell me my rights.

And gamers aren't growing up. The select group you're looking at is, but there are more coming into the scene then maturing in it. It's kinda like jailbait: you grow up but they always stay the same age.

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I preordered yesterday Manhunt 2 at BestBuy Canada. Today I checked again, and the game has been removed. Seems BestBuy and Futureshop in Canada will not carry the game?!

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I'm glad I have all these wonderful people around me who know what I should and shouldn't play. Now, even as an adult, I can feel like a kid again.

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If Nintendo won't allow "AO" games on the Wii, then they should stop calling it a console for "everyone". I am an adult, and I want to play games that may be considered "Adult" whether it's violent or due to sexual content. I'd like to play more survival horror games in the same genre as 80's horror flicks and they REQUIRE violence & nudity.

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The problem here is that the world still sees the videogame industry as a hobby for childs and teenagers. It will take too much time for the world to get the point that the videogame industry is for everyone.

And, I'm really dissapointed with Nintendo. They have said that the Wii is for everyone... Then why ban an AO game? After all, a M game is also limited to a group of gamers. I know there are differences, but for a little child? Is there a big difference?

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I keep hearing "I'm an adult. Why can't I play adult games." I really don't see why being an adult makes it ok to simulate ANYTHING in a video game. Where's the connection? And why is this even worth defending?

There are much nobler things being silenced these days than the right to simulate any perverse pleasure in a video game. (Since AO has no upper bound, that's essentialy what's on the line, right?) Let's not pretend this is some sacred right being violated.

I didn't know Nintendo banned AO titles, but if they did, I applaud them for recognizing what even a loose association with this kind of market would do to their new-found non-gamer market. Even if it's just about the money for them, (and it shouldn't be), at least they're aware of the connection.

I'm kind of surprised not many posters here are happy about this. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one who feels this way.

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